What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? until he says otherwise what else can a person think? He saw it as bad government.". https://www.youtube.com/watchv=i7lv9oMjv_0&sns=em&app=desktop. Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. I was reading related posts and noticed hes playing the martyr role as Driscoll did. Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. A grunge rock Lord Byron mad, bad and dangerous to know. Actually, I think the timing was just for that reason. Mark pretty much mandated participation in weekly Life Groups plus you had to use their social media platform The City to stay connected. Same goes for singles. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. Like the guy who was in charge of SGM, he got away scot-free and is doing well for himself despite the outcry against him. Galatians 5:22-23. actually getting behind the wheel of a car again will probably be the hardest thing he does, if he ever even wants to drive again. Its a measure of arrogance. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. But there is an interesting bit in Acts 9 right after Paul was doing a lot of debating/bold speaking in Jerusalem, the Hellenistic Jews want to kill him. Do these Pentecostal leaders believe that there is a doppelgnger out there who tied MD up in a basement then impersonated him, swearing and saying horrible things from the pulpit? If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. I believe this is the 2 Thessalonians time period so it will become increasingly more difficult to avoid false teachers. He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. I hope more will speak up in the future. Mark was one cog in a system that should never have been in place. full of manly manness and praise of human strength and wisdom and all the attributes mark has himself. But Peter rebuked him for his motives and told him to repent of his wickedness and told him he was gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.. If not, why not? Doing well as opposed to what? . Is there a third way that I have overlooked? pic.twitter.com/Wt6wZOdE9J. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. I study a lot of the giant DFW megas but most of my data is still filtered through the Gateway lens. It was especially appropriate to hear last night since our current sermon series is on the topic of Worship. However, some of his employees and family were taken in by SBTS and seem to be doing ok. IMO, the church as a whole can help to regulate these things by exposing them and explaining how they do not reflect Christ at all. He lives in the Show Me State, so go ahead and show me. or barred from the league for having too many technichal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct and yelling at the referees for too many seasons. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. There is a very strong argument for both priests and politicians to have both life and work experience before they enter the fray, however this is the age of the career priest and pollie. Adultery, stealing, cheating, being abusive, being a drunkard can also keep you out of heaven.". According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. Do I hope they change? Blech!! perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him). But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. That got my attention as I was reading the comments yesterday evening. On the other hand though a lot of people obviously like the guy enormously and his business model for his church is pretty successful. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently. The financial aspects. what would you say and do (if they stoned you) angry mob is murdering him openly publicly and shamefully. Actually are pews still in general use? @Albuquerque Blue This is not a measure of faith. If so you may be onto something. They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. Here me in this, the issue is Jesus. . Treating the congregation as customers is pure evil, IMO. . All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Members are guests? he sees God. So quick question if anyone wants to take a whack at it. James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas services. ), Warren Throckmorton quickly put up a post on this development and featured the following video. When you go to these posh country clubesque entertainment centers their #1 priority is to get visitors connected and plugged in. To tell, perhaps? Likewise, in house churches sin happens because people will be people. I dont feel I HAVE to agree with you. they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. Mark was talking about Mark. Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. In case this was not a rhetorical question, What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. he was chosen because the apostles couldnt be bothered by distributing food to widows) first martyr in church. Love, In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? These leaders are lacking even a basic level of discernment or judgement. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. Within a few months most of the members of Mars Hill Church withdrew their support of orphans under our care. Because he simply cannot be trusted not to repeat himslefthus destroying more lives. He threatened to make sure that I could never be in ministry again. But with those reading glasses they are losing their hipness and relevance and megas feed off of young marrieds with children. Forgiveness does not address that issue at all. :o) I would view it like this: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are worth investigating with openess and transparancy. An event of this magnitude, indoors and in such close proximity, combined with case numbers where they are and our hospitals full, could be devastating, he said. i have very little church experience so i dont think i am qualified to even speak to these things though. Only when inquiring about membership was their any discussion of W2s and the appropriate amount to tithe. Hi Nancy, I am a graduate from Sydney and I just want to say thank you so very much for making Mercy a possibility for girls like myself to be able to go to here in Australia, it has truly saved my life and given me a future. I think they have handled it with great PR and it is working. And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? I view it as wisdom. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name., I dont think God has sent any dreams or visions to anyone vouching for Mark Driscoll? I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. signed, Still Looking, first i wasnt refering to anything lindell wrote but only his intro for mark driscoll because i have never read anything he wrote and dont want to. Whatever is going through Marks head, he is bent on getting people to listen to him again and to be heard. Nancy, i think theres a lot of truth to what you say, and its more than posdible that people he was addressing in his letters knew at least something about that. Youre not one of us. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. I told him that. http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll. Im honored that Marks here so I dont want anybody reading what Im saying as some kind of disclaimer or apology. paul was the most influential person in christianity after Jesus. I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. My heart aches for all those whom Mark Driscoll hurt from the Petrys and Meyers to the young and impressionable. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. He was an abusing thug. Thats right, the head pastor no less! Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. If one other person had confirmed my concerns then I would not have pushed my data points aside as just being something only I had an issue with. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. It came swiftly and with great effect. It seems like the big megas tend to adopt or embrace some of the sleazier or ungodly aspects of other churches verses the more positive programs like community services. You dont find out about some of the really bad stuff until you are pretty deep into it. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. If I were Satan I would give the Wormwood who came up with that system a big raise (or give away their books so theyd get a fat royalty check ; ). There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. Don't you know that the way he behaved and treated people is no big deal? Working at James River is never be boring because of the mission that you are pursuing and the amazing things that you get to be a part of. If the congregation, the pew sitter as you say, cannot do it what does that leave? Those who challenged him were openly chastised, disgracefully removed from membership and/or shunned until the organization he created finally said enough is enough and sent him packing (however, with a nice severance package). If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. How do you see this as someone looking in? I asked the mayor, specifically, how he will vote on the matter April 7. It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. Its what he does. Did Paul plagiarize? The first time, it was shocking. I do hope that nobody is still saying these same things before they clean up their own act. Driscoll does not meet the biblical qualifications to be a preacher. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. I doubt he walked away broke. They are showered with gifts and once you relinquish your highly prized contact data more gifts will follow to your home address. Yes, Lord, he answered. sam wrote: He was an abusing thug. Why This Popular Megachurch Pastor Almost Gave Up His Ministry Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. Let me look it up. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. Driscoll should not be granted any level of power till he has demonstrated that he has obtained the humility necessary to handle it. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious? Clear All United States - All Cities Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. No body guards. In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. 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I have read both accounts that Che was short for Chancho and also a play on his habitually calling everyone che which is slang for pal/friend etc. Associating with Driscoll might make them feel younger and edgy. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. It is deceiving men so they will be more inclined to pay those 500+ employees their hundred thousand dollar pay packages. CCHD is extremely concerned about the health and well-being of all our community members and particularly those who attended the high-capacity event over the weekend. that is not walking in love that is running a business, and i am not a judge. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. I agree with you there, but I wonder, how popular is this hyper macho brand of Christianity anymore? Even if Houston hadnt properly researched before the demise of MH, surely he must have learned something to have made the decision to downgrade MD from speaker to interviewee. Thanks for your help Numo! She was warned not to work with Agathos. http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. Bummer. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight. It is like embezzlers working around money. Even a brief check on MD online will turn up 67 billion pages with examples of his vulgar or obnoxious and bullying behavior, including several blogs by ex Mars Hill members. John Lindell, pastor of James River Church, represents a new breed of reformed Assembly of God pastors yes Calvinism in the Assembly of God! His Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and Jesus never asked a single person for a single penny. I do not for one minute believe they are suddenly open. Youre not one of us. Pews are in the old megas. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. They just have to shamelessly scam more money in the name of Jesus. I really appreciate your insights Lydia. I think Christians make a huge mistake when looking at patterns of spiritual abuse, deception and tyranny as whether or not they are criminal according to our laws. Q. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. In your mega travels, Lydia, whats the biggest honorarium from tithe dollars you have been privy to? (glorifies paul. And of course JLindell can know that MD has NOT repented and sought reconciliation with those he threatened with breaking their nose, and then expelled and shunned. I think MD needs a season in the wilderness to really think things out. As the one did previously now the other is going thru the hoops of treatment and being checked on by outside agencies because being around the child is worth it. And yes, Baptists and other evangelicals have evolved to believing similar using other methods of mediation for people. Pouring what, exactly? First, he begins by praying that he wants to make this time just about God and His people; yet he appears to take the stories of Stephen and Paul and apply them to his own circumstance at least that's how it sounded to me. if mark is truly repentant than this sermon is him explaining how he persecuted and publicly stoned stephen to death which was actually mark stoning Jesus to death publicly and with no remorse. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. i tweeted: Did you miss a tithe payment? Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? This can be anything from praying for people over the phone to working in the Online Campus studio. I dont think he is qualified to lead any church or ministry of any size until he exhibits the fruit of the Spirit for a long, long time. But we dont know yet for sure. @ Abi Miah: Unless he completely revamps his life and his teachings, hes going to leave damaged lives in his wake. these were murders not trials. Maybe six months from now, there'll be another terrible story, and we'll know that they BS'd us. I need to talk to the president, he may be unaware what some of his professors are teaching. Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling the perception of what I think about womenentirely my own fault. . Mega churches are asking people to step back from the reality of how they effect people and just go along with a bunch of rules and covenants and christianeese and let them stay in their positions cause their friends say they are changed. I dont believe the above because I am wondering how many more similar stories no matter how benign, there are. But I did find this on the IRS website: A tax-exempt organization "may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.". Did this evil plot involve the use of ninjas or leprechauns? Has he asked them to forgive him? This guy has lists on his page in bulleted form: So start telling us exactly what in the blogosphere is false. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. He is a draw. It was just a matter of time before New Calvinism found a way to resurrect its leading icon. Connect With Us! i have seen so much of what you wrote about to know that it is true, a big orchestrated show to fleece sheep and get fame. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. what is a person supposed to do? The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. His style appealed to the carnal nature of 21st century Christians he gave them what they wanted and they loved it so. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. I have always found this aspect of Pauls story very interesting. How about when people stone you for your faith? He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. What I didnt know until this year is how much they are invading their universities as well. When not enough graduates came forward they started begging people please any graduate or relative of a graduate, even if you just graduated from Kindergarten, please please come get your free gift because what Kindergartner doesnt need advice on how to buy a car? Excellent comment! its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". kings sit. Open Discussion Page. As Gram wrote above these are relationships (if you can call it that) built on trust. He returned to Maryland in March 1965, when he was assigned to an Assembly of God church in Cresaptown, just south of Cumberland. Title http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, from reading rob smiths post about the orphanage Agathos in Africa being defunded by Marks Hill church and marks telling missionaries not to work with them it is clear where Matt Chandler got the idea. Analogously, there are certain qualities that police forces screen for, to hopefully screen out bullies who want a uniform. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. I dont think Christians have to throw out common sense/reason/logic. stephen is going to be filled with the Holy Spirit. (mark doesnt say that stephen was already filled with the Holy Spirit, the bible doesnt mention stephen being filled at that time at all) pure in heart shall see God. From my perspective, the problem with Driscolls repentance is the same as the problem with the Chandler apology. IMO they are not qualified to interpret the Bible. EXCLUSIVE: THE WEDDING's OFF! BRAD PITT FAMILY CAUGHT IN A GAY SCANDAL No it wasnt, thanks for the insights. "Homosexual activity will lead to destruction. i hope people will go back and read the whole thing if they havent yet. Mark Driscoll should not be a preacher ever again. While a decreasing quota meant less pay. Reveal the conspiracy please. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. I know the utter devastation that these cults can wreak on their members. I had never heard someone talk like that. What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. @ Nancy: Its much harder to leave that way. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility Thats certainly how Driscoll has handled things. CAn you see him in some sort of corporate environment working for a woman? "Although I don't think I'm going to 'love' this column.". Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. Bah, hit reply to soon. they warm up to stone people like baseball players and lay their coats at the feet of saul to show he is the alpha. (I would have thought he was the lazy one who didnt want to get his hands dirty by actually doing anything but talking a lot), takes it from daniel where god becomes man, if you saw Jesus you would not likely see him as you expect. The Washington Post published the following headline last Sunday: Controversial preacher Mark Driscoll stripped from megachurch Hillsong conference lineup link. Finding out who and what Robert Morris really is inherently taints many others on the religious and political right, thereby making me question all my prior values and decisions. since we are all clergy??? So true. I tend to doubt it but who knows. They dont (want to) get it. Kids will experience life-giving messages and TONS of fun as they watch content created just for them. But we don't know yet for sure. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. Guess well see. At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. I only write the truth about Gateway in order to warn others, never to discourage anyone. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. I am not the most wonderful guy in the world, i am not a saint, but when i asked Jesus to forgive me and fill me with His Spirit i changed inside. During those early years they had a great impact on hurting people and a great testimony of the work of the Lord in a group of people dedicated to doing whatever He led them to do. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Houston was saying in his statement he was only just now finding out about some of Mark Driscolls more controversial statements, and that is due to the media.
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